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Jon Teunon



Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 5393


Location: South East of England

PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote
You are not only so ignorant of the facts and details of the case but clearly so uninterested in trying to become better acquainted with them that I am now less inclined to take at face value your claim that you are motivated by compassion for those left devastated by the events at Hillsborough. Who are you to lay down the rules for how families should to respond to tragedies? Who are you to set yourself up as Judge and Jury and take the sides of the authorities who conspired and collaborate for decades to conceal the truth from those directly and indirectly affected by the tragedy. If the families and friends of the 96 had "let it go" then the "only one version of the truth" would be the official record one blaming Liverpool fans for their deaths.

You have expressed complete ignorance of how at least two Inquiries have weighed up the evidence which involved  evaluating contrasting testimonies. When they made their judgements they too into account how "how football was in those days" including the condition of stadia and police procedure etc. You have utterly missed the point that official police procedure then never included cover ups, the fabrication of evidence and other concerted efforts to mislead and misinform while smearing the victims. These are the "facts" and "context" of that day's terrible events and the aftermath. You might as well dismiss any Court decision as "myth" because the overwhelming majority of them decide that "only one version of the truth is now acceptable"!

Thanks to objective analysis by judges etc where the police (including whistle blowers who contradicted the official line) got to state their case we now have a nuanced and credible explanation of what happened something which necessary for grieving families to have any chance of coming to grips with their loss. If the Inquiries had shown objectively that Liverpool fans had been to blame then the families of the victims would have had to dealt with that but it did not. Those presiding over these exhaustive investigations were beyond reproach, had no axe to grind and were clearly motivated by trying to ascertain the truth. If they had found that there was too much uncertainty and lost evidence to make a ruling they would have done so. So innuendos, hints and outright relativism to try and fudge the issue are completely unfounded. It's time for you to "let go" and stop pontificating about a matter you know very little about.
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frances



Joined: 17 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You miss the point again. I am sure the inquiries which I and no one else has actually read gave all sides of the situation. I'm sure my points will be given weight in the reports.

What you get in the press is a quick shot myth summary which does not give the full picture.

I feel very sorry for everyone. I feel sorry for the families - extremely sorry that they are still not getting any sort of peace about this.

I feel very sorry for all the officials and police who are still being investigated and sued. Their lives must have been ruined too.

It's too long. And there is no peace for any one.
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Brian



Joined: 09 Aug 2010
Posts: 3370


Location: Northampton

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
As mentioned previously we have the same old grudging apology from the "Sun" over the Kelvin McKenzie article and racial slurs that were included.
Note the length of time for this apology to arrive in print, and McKenzie's flimsy excuses, while he has not been sacked but "suspended".
Of course the legal challenge as outlined by Ross Barkley's solicitors, and the now further boycotting of this so called newspaper by the people on Merseyside and elsewhere has worked.
Unfortunately however plenty of people still are buying the "Sun" and we can already see its headlines praising all things Theresa May and the Tories, while printing any innuendo about Jeremy Corbyn and castigating Labour and the progressive opposition parties including the SNP.
While its Scottish sister paper praises all things Nicola Sturgeon and SNP, funny how circulation figures and profit can dictate such hypocrisy isn't it?
Ed Miliband stood up to Rupert Murdoch and it worked, its about time this right wing rag and racist bigots like McKenzie was boycotted by the whole of the UK.


https://www.theguardian.com/media...-mackenzie-column-on-ross-barkley
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Jon Teunon



Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 5393


Location: South East of England

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ironically Brian seeing today's headlines on last night's The Papers on BBC 24 The Sun is far from happy with May:

Quote:
NO, NO, NO PRIME MINISTER

PAY AND
DISMAY


Tories ready to hit White Van Man

OAPS face end of pension pledge

And foreign aid will be increased


Of course they will go after Corbyn with the usual poison and lack of perspective but that he is a very easy target is largely down to himself. What will be interesting will be the reaction of the right-wing rabid tabloids like Murdoch's rag and The Daily Mail and Express etc if as I imagine May refuses to tow their line. Whatever the Prime Minister is she is her own woman and she appears single minded enough to refrain from the cosying up to these capricious media behemoths like Blair and Cameron did.

Frances you're just underlining your ignorance and arrogance about the whole subject of Hillsborough. Without reading the report you have decided that the families who have done so should cease their quest for Justice. How insensitive and high handed is that no to mention hypocritical because you have tried to use public ignorance of the reports as part of your argument? Simultaneously, by failing to even mention MacKenzie's abuse of his position in the media to continue his defamation of the people of Liverpool (which by the way is the context of this discussion as raised by Brian) whether by design or accident to appear to be targeting the victims and their families of Hillsborough while letting him off the hook. Meanwhile before you do read the 2016 report consider what the BBC wrote when it was published:

Quote:
The jury found match commander Ch Supt David Duckenfield was "responsible for manslaughter by gross negligence" due to a breach of his duty of care.

Police errors also added to a dangerous situation at the FA Cup semi-final.

The prime minister said the inquests had provided "official confirmation" fans were "utterly blameless".

After a 27-year campaign by victims' families, the behaviour of Liverpool fans was exonerated.

The jury found they did not contribute to the danger unfolding at the turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end of Sheffield Wednesday's ground on 15 April 1989.

Nine jurors reached unanimous decisions on all but one of the 14 questions at the inquests into Britain's worst sporting disaster.

The coroner Sir John Goldring said he would accept a majority decision about whether the fans were unlawfully killed - seven jurors agreed they were.

When the conclusion of the unlawful killing was revealed, families were seen hugging each other in the public gallery and some punched the air.

When considering how each of the 96 victims died the jury concluded many died well after 15:15 on the day of the match.

The coroner at the original inquest in 1991, Dr Stefan Popper, said he would not hear any evidence relating to deaths beyond that time because he believed all the victims had died, or suffered fatal injuries, by then.

The deaths were ruled accidental and those verdicts were quashed following the 2012 Hillsborough Independent Panel report, and new hearings were ordered.

The new inquests found the direct medical cause of death was compression asphyxia in all but three of the victims.

The earliest time of death was estimated from 14:57 and the last up to 17:00.

Tony Bland, the 96th victim, died in 1993 after being left brain damaged, due to or as a consequence of compression asphyxia.

The jury also concluded:

Police errors caused a dangerous situation at the turnstiles
   
Failures by commanding officers caused a crush on the terraces
   
There were mistakes in the police control box over the order to open the Leppings Lane end exit gates
   
Defects at the stadium, including calculations over crowd capacity, contributed to the disaster
   
There was an error in the safety certification of the Hillsborough stadium
   
South Yorkshire Police (SYP) and South Yorkshire Ambulance Service (SYAS) delayed declaring a major incident
 
The emergency response was therefore delayed
   
Sheffield Wednesday failed to approve the plans for dedicated turnstiles for each pen
   
There was inadequate signage at the club and misleading information on match tickets
   
Club officials should have requested a delay in kick off as they were aware of a huge number of fans outside shortly before the game was due to start


Now show me how these findings do "not give the full picture". The reason why the process has taken so long is because the authorities colluded in concealing facts from the families of the victims and the public. If they had not done so there would have been no need for the subsequent exhaustive inquiries and the families would have been spared from the years of anguish knowing they were being fobbed off. Yet you turn this round to blame the families for not giving up! Let there be no doubt that the logic of your argument that the families should not have put themselves through this strain is that inevitably they would have gone to their graves without their loved ones being exonerated.

You assert "there is no peace for any one" but the families clearly thought it is worthwhile to gain an official exoneration for the 96 and the sense of peace that brings to them. That is what counts here not your views about the viability closure since you can talk for yourself about how best to deal with personal tragedies. No amounts of "sorry for the families" etc can disguise that central point. The families and friends decided to pursue this approach and only they can judge whether the process has alleviated any of their pain. By assuming you are in a position to gauge the effects on their well being from the outside merely suggests how deluded you are over this matter with just a hint of misguided omniscience.

So you are factually wrong in your claim that the publicly accepted version of events are "is nearer to myth" and as an outsider your assertion that it won't bring the families any peace is meaningless because you are in not in a position to know. How individuals respond to tragedy will vary and not only should they respond how they feel fit they are condemned to do so. Their feelings and their responses. The only restraint are legal and nothing the families of the 96 have done have been outside the law. On the contrary they have followed legal procedures assiduously which is one of the reason they have been so successful and why their critics and snipers only have insensitive words and crass interventions on their side.
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Brian



Joined: 09 Aug 2010
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Location: Northampton

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It would appear that it is the end of the road for Kelvin McKenzie and his long working relationship with Rupert Murdoch and the Sun newspaper.
It is amazing that McKenzie has actually lasted this long, with his catalogue of xenophobic, bigoted and racist comments over the years.
One can only hope that no mainstream media especially the BBC gives this man a platform to air his obnoxious views.
However just like his female equivalent Katie Hopkins, one suspects that McKenzie will appear somewhere on the media airwaves.
Maybe even right now a producer is planning to launch a dream team of McKenzie and Farage, the new Derek and Clive without the satire!

https://www.theguardian.com/media...lvin-mackenzie-over-his-departure
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Jon Teunon



Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 5393


Location: South East of England

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Still calling the tune but for how much longer? Murdoch's muppet:

Quote:
The government has refused to deny that Rupert Murdoch asked Theresa May to reappoint Michael Gove to the cabinet or face a bad press in his newspaper titles, insisting that cabinet roles are selected on “merit and experience”.

Tom Watson, the deputy Labour leader, wrote to May last month to inquire whether Murdoch had sought any influence over cabinet appointments and Gove’s future.

In the government’s response, Damian Green, the first secretary of state, did not address Watson’s questions about Murdoch directly but said that decisions about cabinet and ministerial roles were taken by the prime minister alone.



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